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Post by HappyFan on Jun 3, 2024 16:49:09 GMT
Answer the poll! Did they make it too hard this year?
I really enjoyed watching an event where they made it challenging for a change. It's so much more fun to watch than birdie fests are.
Having said that, it felt like there were some aspects of the course that were almost comically hard. Especially tough were the greens. A shorter player could hit a perfect drive in the middle of the fairway (as Jin Young repeatedly did on Sunday) and not be able to stop the approach anywhere close to the flag, no matter what she did. In one instance, she hit an approach that barely hit the fringe at the front and still rolled off the back of the green. When that happens, you are essentially making it impossible for shorter players to win. I feel like the goal should be: if you play well you can contend, even if not as long a player.
Then, assuming you hit a good shot, if the ball was even three feet above the hole, good luck making the putt. In fact, good luck not blowing it ten feet past in the birdie try. Yes, placing the approach below the hole should be the goal, but it shouldn't be essential; if you hit the ball close but are not in the ideal spot, you should at least have some chance to make the putt.
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Post by HappyFan on Jun 3, 2024 18:35:09 GMT
One interesting measure of the success of the event is the leaderboard you get. Did it produce a quality leaderboard with top players?
We have an interesting comparison in that they played this exact same course nine years ago. Here was the top ten that week (OK, top 11):
1 South Korea I.G. Chun -4 F -8 2 South Korea A. Yang +1 F -7 T3 United States S. Lewis E F -5 T3 South Korea I. Park -3 F -5 T5 Japan S. Oyama E F -3 T5 Canada B. Henderson -4 F -3 T5 United States J. Park -2 F -3 T5 United States M. Pressel -2 F -3 T5 Sweden P. Lindberg -3 F -3 T5 South Korea S.Y. Ryu -3 F -3 11 United States M. Wie West E F -2
In Gee won 8 times worldwide in 2015. Amy Yang had multiple top five finishes in this event over the decade. Inbee and Lewis were recent #1s in the world. Henderson, So Yeon and Wie had all won Majors in the recent past; Wie was the defending champion. Pressel was also a Major winner.
The only two players on this list who were surprising were Oyama and Jane Park. OK, and Lindberg, although she would win a Major not long after this.
Now look at this year's top ten:
1 Japan Y. Saso -2 F -4 2 Japan H. Shibuno +2 F -1 T3 United States A. Lee +5 F E T3 United States A. Ewing -4 F E 5 Thailand A. Yubol -1 F +1 T6 Japan A. Furue -2 F +2 T6 Thailand W. Meechai +7 F +2 T6 Thailand A. Thitikul -2 F +2 T9 Japan S. Koiwai +2 F +3 T9 Japan R. Takeda +1 F +3 T9 Australia M. Lee +8 F +3
Saso and Shibuno are Major winners, but both have struggled in the past year, especially Shibuno (her previous best finish this year was a tie for 50th; she had just one top ten in 2023. Saso did have some decent results in 2023 but not much this year). Ally Ewing -- is she even on the Solheim team? Was she on anyone's bingo card to make top five at the beginning of the week? Anyways, not one of the top Americans. Yubol and Meechai are journeymen. Koiwai and Takeda are obscure on this side of the pond.
The only players who are both top notch stars and who have played well recently are Minjee Lee, Furue and Thitikul, and Thitikul is coming back from an injury with this being her first really good event since returning (although it was only a matter of time with her tbh). Andrea Lee was having a good year with multiple top tens, so I'll include her as not so surprising, although even with her this is beyond what you might have expected.
So even if you include Saso based on 2023, that's still far fewer top ranked players in the top ten than in 2015.
So either the LPGA is doing a poor job week to week of identifying the top players in the world, and that was exposed this week; or this was not a good test of who is the best. I think there is a little of both.
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Post by klpgaenglish on Jun 4, 2024 1:35:15 GMT
I really can't answer this question. I am not a golfer or a golf expert in any way.
I can only ask some dumb questions.
If the LPGA did change their setups for whatever reason to be "easier", how would that manifest itself at a harder course the pros weren't prepared for?
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Post by klpgaenglish on Jun 4, 2024 1:37:54 GMT
I like course setups where the final winning score is 9 to 10 under.
1. We're pros. We can shoot under par. We're good.
2. The course wasn't so insane that only 2 players were under par.
3. The course wasn't so easy that 10 players were lower than 10 under.
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Post by don on Jun 4, 2024 7:55:34 GMT
An easy course may test concentration but only a very difficult course tests mettle.
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Post by philknj on Jun 4, 2024 9:57:12 GMT
I gave a qualified 'No' vote. But, I'm wondering about the par-3 12th. I don't recall it being so hard in 2015 ... later on, I'm going to replay the 2015 final round on YouTube to see how different the course looked and played.
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Post by HappyFan on Jun 4, 2024 14:41:42 GMT
Yeah, qualified no for me, too. US Women's Open courses should be hard, but there is a tipping point, and it feels like some of the holes might have crossed it. How many people who were in that back bunker on 12 ended up knocking it across the green and into the water! I think at least three that I saw. Does that ever happen anywhere else?
Here's In Gee on 12 in round 4 in 2015. She made birdie!
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Post by HappyFan on Jun 4, 2024 14:46:03 GMT
I like course setups where the final winning score is 9 to 10 under. 1. We're pros. We can shoot under par. We're good. 2. The course wasn't so insane that only 2 players were under par. 3. The course wasn't so easy that 10 players were lower than 10 under. I'm cool with the winning score being ~4 under for a US Women's Open, but I want anyone who plays top level golf to have a chance to reach that score. If you have a 430 yard hole where some players are forced to hit a hybrid uphill and cannot hold the green as a result, that does not strike me as fair. I rarely feel like they go too far in the hard direction (usually the opposite is the case), but it's hard to make the case that most of the top players in the world suddenly forgot how to play hard courses or basics of course management.
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Post by aptrojan on Jun 5, 2024 1:08:05 GMT
The US Open should always be challenging. It's a nice reprieve watching them grind for pars vs the birdie barrage courses that repeat the LPGA schedule
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Post by klpgaenglish on Jun 5, 2024 2:15:24 GMT
ONE HOLE Those who set up a course have to have some sort of idea how to play the hole successfully. What was the proper strategy on 12 with a front pin location? Left or right bunker for a successful bogey? How did the few make birdie on 12 on Thursday? Chip shots from a side bunker? Didn't MinByeol make birdie on 12 on Thursday? I understand "hard", but making a hole unrealistic is nuts. What percentage of players were expected to birdie 12 during any one round?
WHOLE COURSE I understand for variety and for learning etc some courses can be set up "harder" than others. I'm not saying ALL events should aim for a winning score of 9 under. I'm thinking a top quality, well maintained, balanced course should aim for 9-under. I am perfectly comfortable with some courses being harder and some easier than 9 under. My problem is when you have TOO many hard courses or too few OR too many easy courses.
TOUR YEAR There are 32 tour events. Let's have 4 set ups that are crazy hard. 3 under winner Let's have 6 or 7 that are really easy. 15 under to 20 under. The rest should be about 10 under.
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Post by philknj on Jun 5, 2024 12:07:02 GMT
I skimmed through the 2015 USWO final round video ... maybe it was too easy back then. The par-3 12th was down on the secondary tee at 141 (it played between 158 and 174 in 2024). The par-3 6th had the flag on the far right (was 4 yards left of the water in 2024). The par-5 7th, WTH, was was only 469 yards ... golf gear distance, in theory, only improved thru 2024, but 2015 was not the Stone Age.
The issue at #12 last Thursday AM was a left-to-right wind that gusted occasionally ... I would have set up that hole at least once or twice on one of the lower tees for more variety.
BTW, MHL and her orange ball made a cameo in 2015 at 10:54 thru 11.03.
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Post by HappyFan on Jun 5, 2024 14:26:22 GMT
So why did so many of the top players struggle this week? It feels like perhaps random luck played too much of a part this year. I don't think it was entirely due to 12, although the chance for a big number there seemed greater than elsewhere.
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Post by SoYeonFan on Jun 5, 2024 18:15:17 GMT
My goodness these are Pro Golfers, they should prepare themselves for difficult holes. Make adjustment find your best option instead of hitting directly at the flag unless you have no choice. This is worse than bad bounce Lexi that complained about bad bounces at the Evian. So I guess by what people are writing Yuka and the people in the top ten was lucky and got good bounces. Golf is the only sport that want things to be easy for them, with all types of putters and drivers.
One time a golfer had a two-shot lead in a Major with two holes to play. A bogey par would have given her the win. Instead of making sure that her ball went right of the flag, She hit at the flag and hit it left into the water. Made a double bogey and eventually lost the Tournament. So was that the course setup or the golfer's not making a good decision.
By the way that's why Inbee Park is in the Hall of Fame Because she made great decision managing her game.
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Post by klpgaenglish on Jun 5, 2024 21:32:01 GMT
Jenny Shin talked about how hard this Open was on X. It sounded like complaining.
I am sure it was frustrating for her and others. It would be easy for a casual reader to think she was pissed and unhappy, but she also said in a comment that maybe fewer saw, "they should have this more often."
We therefore can't assume all golfers want "easy" set ups all the time.
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Post by HappyFan on Jun 6, 2024 0:04:34 GMT
I don't think it's necessarily whining for them to say that the course was too hard. If we assume it IS possible to make the course too hard or unfair, then the only question is, how hard does it have to be before it crosses that line?
I like that it was hard, but I also find it odd that we had so few top players end up in the top ten (especially compared to 2015). At any given event a few top players will screw up, but almost all of them? It's unusual to say the least.
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